Litigation Support

Guest · Guest

I think that metadata is very important, if there is a smoking gun. But in most cases does the opposing side ever bring the subject up? Or the court?

Ron

--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Robert W. O'Reilly <roreilly@sunsteinlaw.com ([email]roreilly%40sunsteinlaw.com[/email])> wrote:

From: Robert W. O'Reilly <roreilly@sunsteinlaw.com ([email]roreilly%40sunsteinlaw.com[/email])>
Subject: RE: [litigation_support@yahoogroups.com ([email]litigation_support%40yahoogroups.com[/email])] MD 5 Hash for bates numbers
To: litigation_support@yahoogroups.com ([email]litigation_support%40yahoogroups.com[/email])
Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 4:15 PM

I think that using the MD5 hash as a control number (avoiding the hated

term bates#) is a really bad idea. The number is too complicated for

anyone to repeat out loud at deposition or type into a request. We have

inserted document id numbers into the file names and sometimes changed

the filename from what the author used to the docid.

I will agree that saying the metadata is not useful 99 of 100 times is a

bit overbroad. I take the view that it is important for us to collect

metadata and then we should negotiate what we are going to produce. I

have found that most of our adversaries do not want it or if they do

they want very limited stuff like the such as filename date created or

last modified. Just because they do not ask for it does not mean that

we do not use the metadata for our own purposes to organize documents

for review or to see who and when certain documents were prepared and

how communications between individuals were handles by our client. Have

a seen cases turn on the metadata yes but not too often.

Last thing the firm I work for handles only intellectual property

litigation - contract disputes, civil fraud, securities or criminal

defense -- in those practice areas the metadata would often be more

important.

Robert O'Reilly, Litigation Support Manager

Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP

125 Summer Street | Boston, MA 02110-1618

617.443.9292 main |617.692.2254| 617.443.0004 fax

roreilly@sunsteinla w.com <mailto:roreilly@sunsteinla w.com> |

www.sunsteinlaw. com <http://www.sunstein law.com/>

Winning Intellectual Property(r)

This e-mail is from Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP, a law firm, and

may contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are

not the intended recipient, do not read, copy or distribute the e-mail

or any attachments. Instead, please notify the sender and delete the

e-mail and any attachments. Thank you.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

[mailto:litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John Randall

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:45 PM

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: [litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com] MD 5 Hash for bates

numbers

Jay,

While I do agree with you that MD5 for the bates number for native files

is a bad idea. Mostly from an organizational point of view with finding

files. I am curious where you got your data in terms of your statement

that 99 times ouf of 100 metadata is irrelevant in civil cases. Are you

serious? Where did you get those numbers from? I will be honest to me it

is a crazy statment and I talk with judges all the time and I think they

would also scratch their heads at your statements especially based on

case law.

John Randall

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

<mailto:litigation_ support%40yahoog roups.com>

From: buckopoly@yahoo. com <mailto:buckopoly% 40yahoo.com>

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:16:11 +0000

Subject: [litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

<mailto:litigation_ support%40yahoog roups.com> ] MD 5 Hash for bates

numbers

On the ILTA Board I have been seeing a lot of posts regarding using the

MD 5 Hash value as the bates number for native files. The whole

department here believes that is a bad idea. The MD 5 Hash value is long

and convoluted and is just not reasonable. There is absolutley nothing

wrong with bates numbering the file names. You can always tell the

software to add a bates name to the beginning of a file name for bates

numbering purposes on a civil case. I will agree that a file name and

the meta data maybe important in some criminal cases, however 99 times

out of a 100 in a civil case the meta data is irrelevant. This being

said, if the other side comes across a document that they want the meta

data for you can still go back to your database and pull out the meta

data from the original file.

What is everyone else's opinion on this?

Jay Spencer

Dinsmore & Shohl

Cincinnati, Ohio

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.

http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/

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Guest · Guest

In most cases, I hope that the issue of metadata has been discussed 'way up front' and all parties should know definitively whether metadata is relevant and expected - its not something that can easily be addressed after the fact.

________________________________
From: Ron McGill <ronm@forensource.com ([email]ronm%40forensource.com[/email])>
To: litigation_support@yahoogroups.com ([email]litigation_support%40yahoogroups.com[/email])
Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 5:24:11 PM
Subject: [litigation_support@yahoogroups.com ([email]litigation_support%40yahoogroups.com[/email])] 99% rule

I think that metadata is very important, if there is a smoking gun. But in most cases does the opposing side ever bring the subject up? Or the court?

Ron

--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Robert W. O'Reilly <roreilly@sunsteinla w.com> wrote:

From: Robert W. O'Reilly <roreilly@sunsteinla w.com>
Subject: RE: [litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com] MD 5 Hash for bates numbers
To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 4:15 PM

I think that using the MD5 hash as a control number (avoiding the hated

term bates#) is a really bad idea. The number is too complicated for

anyone to repeat out loud at deposition or type into a request. We have

inserted document id numbers into the file names and sometimes changed

the filename from what the author used to the docid.

I will agree that saying the metadata is not useful 99 of 100 times is a

bit overbroad. I take the view that it is important for us to collect

metadata and then we should negotiate what we are going to produce. I

have found that most of our adversaries do not want it or if they do

they want very limited stuff like the such as filename date created or

last modified. Just because they do not ask for it does not mean that

we do not use the metadata for our own purposes to organize documents

for review or to see who and when certain documents were prepared and

how communications between individuals were handles by our client. Have

a seen cases turn on the metadata yes but not too often.

Last thing the firm I work for handles only intellectual property

litigation - contract disputes, civil fraud, securities or criminal

defense -- in those practice areas the metadata would often be more

important.

Robert O'Reilly, Litigation Support Manager

Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP

125 Summer Street | Boston, MA 02110-1618

617.443.9292 main |617.692.2254| 617.443.0004 fax

roreilly@sunsteinla w.com <mailto:roreilly@ sunsteinla w.com> |

www.sunsteinlaw. com <http://www.sunstein law.com/>

Winning Intellectual Property(r)

This e-mail is from Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP, a law firm, and

may contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are

not the intended recipient, do not read, copy or distribute the e-mail

or any attachments. Instead, please notify the sender and delete the

e-mail and any attachments. Thank you.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

[mailto:litigation_ support@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John Randall

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:45 PM

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: [litigation_ support@ yahoogroups. com] MD 5 Hash for bates

numbers

Jay,

While I do agree with you that MD5 for the bates number for native files

is a bad idea. Mostly from an organizational point of view with finding

files. I am curious where you got your data in terms of your statement

that 99 times ouf of 100 metadata is irrelevant in civil cases. Are you

serious? Where did you get those numbers from? I will be honest to me it

is a crazy statment and I talk with judges all the time and I think they

would also scratch their heads at your statements especially based on

case law.

John Randall

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

<mailto:litigation_ support%40yahoog roups.com>

From: buckopoly@yahoo. com <mailto:buckopoly% 40yahoo.com>

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:16:11 +0000

Subject: [litigation_ support@ yahoogroups. com

<mailto:litigation_ support%40yahoog roups.com> ] MD 5 Hash for bates

numbers

On the ILTA Board I have been seeing a lot of posts regarding using the

MD 5 Hash value as the bates number for native files. The whole

department here believes that is a bad idea. The MD 5 Hash value is long

and convoluted and is just not reasonable. There is absolutley nothing

wrong with bates numbering the file names. You can always tell the

software to add a bates name to the beginning of a file name for bates

numbering purposes on a civil case. I will agree that a file name and

the meta data maybe important in some criminal cases, however 99 times

out of a 100 in a civil case the meta data is irrelevant. This being

said, if the other side comes across a document that they want the meta

data for you can still go back to your database and pull out the meta

data from the original file.

What is everyone else's opinion on this?

Jay Spencer

Dinsmore & Shohl

Cincinnati, Ohio

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.

http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/

<http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Guest · Guest

I am with you on this.

As long as I have been in this game, the presence of metadata no matter how trivial it may seem could pay off huge in the long run.

Even if it only makes a difference in 1 situation and causes me a huge headache standardizing for loading, I would rather have it for the attorneys to make their own judgement on its relevance.

--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Ron McGill <ronm@forensource.com ([email]ronm%40forensource.com[/email])> wrote:

From: Ron McGill <ronm@forensource.com ([email]ronm%40forensource.com[/email])>
Subject: [litigation_support@yahoogroups.com ([email]litigation_support%40yahoogroups.com[/email])] 99% rule
To: litigation_support@yahoogroups.com ([email]litigation_support%40yahoogroups.com[/email])
Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 5:24 PM

I think that metadata is very important, if there is a smoking gun. But in most cases does the opposing side ever bring the subject up? Or the court?

Ron

--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Robert W. O'Reilly <roreilly@sunsteinla w.com> wrote:

From: Robert W. O'Reilly <roreilly@sunsteinla w.com>

Subject: RE: [litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com] MD 5 Hash for bates numbers

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 4:15 PM

I think that using the MD5 hash as a control number (avoiding the hated

term bates#) is a really bad idea. The number is too complicated for

anyone to repeat out loud at deposition or type into a request. We have

inserted document id numbers into the file names and sometimes changed

the filename from what the author used to the docid.

I will agree that saying the metadata is not useful 99 of 100 times is a

bit overbroad. I take the view that it is important for us to collect

metadata and then we should negotiate what we are going to produce. I

have found that most of our adversaries do not want it or if they do

they want very limited stuff like the such as filename date created or

last modified. Just because they do not ask for it does not mean that

we do not use the metadata for our own purposes to organize documents

for review or to see who and when certain documents were prepared and

how communications between individuals were handles by our client. Have

a seen cases turn on the metadata yes but not too often.

Last thing the firm I work for handles only intellectual property

litigation - contract disputes, civil fraud, securities or criminal

defense -- in those practice areas the metadata would often be more

important.

Robert O'Reilly, Litigation Support Manager

Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP

125 Summer Street | Boston, MA 02110-1618

617.443.9292 main |617.692.2254| 617.443.0004 fax

roreilly@sunsteinla w.com <mailto:roreilly@ sunsteinla w.com> |

www.sunsteinlaw. com <http://www.sunstein law.com/>

Winning Intellectual Property(r)

This e-mail is from Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers LLP, a law firm, and

may contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are

not the intended recipient, do not read, copy or distribute the e-mail

or any attachments. Instead, please notify the sender and delete the

e-mail and any attachments. Thank you.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

[mailto:litigation_ support@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John Randall

Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:45 PM

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: [litigation_ support@ yahoogroups. com] MD 5 Hash for bates

numbers

Jay,

While I do agree with you that MD5 for the bates number for native files

is a bad idea. Mostly from an organizational point of view with finding

files. I am curious where you got your data in terms of your statement

that 99 times ouf of 100 metadata is irrelevant in civil cases. Are you

serious? Where did you get those numbers from? I will be honest to me it

is a crazy statment and I talk with judges all the time and I think they

would also scratch their heads at your statements especially based on

case law.

John Randall

To: litigation_support@ yahoogroups. com

<mailto:litigation_ support%40yahoog roups.com>

From: buckopoly@yahoo. com <mailto:buckopoly% 40yahoo.com>

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:16:11 +0000

Subject: [litigation_ support@ yahoogroups. com

<mailto:litigation_ support%40yahoog roups.com> ] MD 5 Hash for bates

numbers

On the ILTA Board I have been seeing a lot of posts regarding using the

MD 5 Hash value as the bates number for native files. The whole

department here believes that is a bad idea. The MD 5 Hash value is long

and convoluted and is just not reasonable. There is absolutley nothing

wrong with bates numbering the file names. You can always tell the

software to add a bates name to the beginning of a file name for bates

numbering purposes on a civil case. I will agree that a file name and

the meta data maybe important in some criminal cases, however 99 times

out of a 100 in a civil case the meta data is irrelevant. This being

said, if the other side comes across a document that they want the meta

data for you can still go back to your database and pull out the meta

data from the original file.

What is everyone else's opinion on this?

Jay Spencer

Dinsmore & Shohl

Cincinnati, Ohio

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.

http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/

<http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222984/ direct/01/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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